ONSTAD RULES!!!!!!!!

I can't be mad at using humor and Monty Python to elevate an argument Laurie.

"Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time."

:-D :-D :-D

(Sorry, sorry, couldn't resist. Love to you both.)

Or you'll stop me?

If you are a ref and student of the game, that is.

Or I could just share my opinion as a referee and a student of the game, and let you take it or leave it as you will.

Well, Dustin, I'm not surprised that you're evading the questions and refusing to back up your opinions. It's your consistent pattern, after all.

What are you afraid of, anyway? If your judgment is good, then your opinions should be supported by the Laws of the Game and the IFAB and USSF interpretations. If it's not supported, then maybe your judgment isn't what you think it is, and you're therefore shortchanging the players on the field when you're out there with a whistle.

As for looking for answers or not, I would take them if you ever offered them. In the past you've asked me direct questions and I've answered them directly, and yes, I have gone and looked things up to make sure I was correct in my thinking. Because that's what an adult who takes responsibility for his opinions does. If the data shows I'm wrong, then I step up and admit it and try to learn more so I come to the correct answers the next time.

As you mentioned, we're both just guys on the internet and therefore no one has any way of knowing what we say about ourselves is true. You claim to be a ref; who knows if you really are? You claim to have experience, but of course none of us can verify that. You say you know refs working games and have inside knowledge received from them and yet again, we have no way of knowing if that's true or not. So if you're unwilling to actually defend your opinions, why should anyone believe anything you have to say?

abe, pat makes 181K this year.. $100 is .055% of his salary.

hardly anything that will make him think twice about his actions next time.

and for the 100th time. montero's actions has NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT ONSTAD DID. it could have been jaqua on the receiving end, or evans, or anyone.... and onstads actions were the same.

Fredy needs to stop embellishing, but i don't see where fredy play acted here. if you aren't balanced, a bump can knock you off your feet. fredy stayed in a ball on the ground after it as there was a bum-rush by all the players - i'm sure he didn't want to be kicked or hit further. i didn't see fredy selling anything on this occassion. what i saw was Onstad sell a hit to his face when no one hit his face - ljungberg even called him out on this "you know better", ljungberg said.

Onstad deserved a yellow (i won't say red as that would be ref discretion... i don't think i'd dictate the outcome of the game like that). BUT fredy deserved no yellow this time. i fully believe that fredy's reputation earned him his yellow here.

what makes it so bad for me is that fredy got a yellow for doing nothing wrong this time, not that onstad wasn't given a red. i do think the $100 fine is absurd though. why bother?

Are you seriously crying about the fine only being $100? First, Montero embelished the whole ordeal. So, the card and fine are a joke anyway. Second, the $100 fine to an MLS-er is relevant considering their salaries.

Carlos I used to do that, cite sources and stuff. Now I save all that for the Seattle Sounders forums, and just say stuff here. You got my number, you've beaten me into submission. I just don't care enough to cite the sources here to argue with you about it.

You're not looking for answers Carlos, you're looking to fight me every step of the way. That's great it's a good quality to have, if you were on my referee team and you were challenging me to be better. You're not though, you're just some guy on the internet, just like me. So I'm gonna state my opinion here and not cite anything, not show my work, and you can say the reason is because I really don't know what I'm talking about. You have that right I certainly can't stop you, I just don't care enough to argue with you while doing homework to prove it. I feel I have enough experience in this that I can make judgment calls just like I do on the field.

Also I said it was a 3rd party source I didn't say I vouched for it or that I saw it happen myself.

Even better, quote the relevant IFAB or USSF interpretations that support your view. You have claimed that you work hard at being a referee and a hard working referee should know these things.

Dustin, you have a bad habit of citing unseen authorities without actually giving specifics or evidence. You say your referee friend saw pushing by Montero, when did this contact happened? Watching the replay from the game, Montero has some normal 50/50 jostling with one of the Houston defenders as the corner comes in, and then when the ball goes out, Onstad snaps and body checks Fredy. If that's the contact your source is talking about, that's extremely weak. And even if the refs want to say that Fredy committed a foul in that sequence, that still doesn't excuse Onstad deliberately and aggressively knocking Fredy down. Also, if what Fredy did was worthy of a yellow, then the Sounders were due a penalty on the earlier corner where Onstad goes out of his way to shove Fredy in the back of the head.

At no point have you made a case for why the decision on the field was correct. You've said that you don't consider Onstad's behavior violent conduct; what are your criteria for that judgment? You've cited an anonymous source saying that Montero did some pushing and that therefore justified Onstad's response. What Law of the Game are you using for support of this theory of justified retaliation? In what situations is it acceptable to knock down a player after a play? You come and post comments on this blog claiming experience and knowledge as a ref. As such you should be able to lay out the reasoning for the decision element by element.

Fredy needs to stop standing around playing dumb in the box. Onstad's box. Not Fredy's. Beat it kid.

It's kind of like the whole Arsenal "simulation" thing. UEFA said Eduardo dived and then big scary Arsenal puffed out it's cheeks and UEFA said "Oh no just kidding it wasn't a dive". It's worse than just ignoring the whole matter because they admitted it was a dive and then revoked it because Arsenal were a big powerful club.

Dave you're kinda stating some absolutes there, not exactly smart, just bullheaded. Also I pointed out that it wasn't just words...it was contact that Montero did. This is coming from a 3rd party another referee who saw the pushing that Montero did.

Dustin, you would give offsetting penalties when words are responded to with bodily contact?

No, you wouldn't. Not if you wanted to move up to the next level. No words are cause for bodily contact in a game. NONE.

Montero was carded due to the scrum afterword demanding offsetting cards, and he was picked because of the reputation he earned.

Personally, I'm hoping we get Alex Prus.

We should find out in a couple of days. The good news is, it won't be Toledo. He's reffing the game tomorrow night!

When do we find out who's refereeing the game? This is going to be brutal.

I'm a big believer in Karma. I think Onstad fouled Montero, deserved the card and probably deserved more than a $100 fine. With that said, Montero has had it coming and probably then some with some of his antics throughout the season. Montero has made a reputation and a name for himself: some bad and some good. Onstad also has a reputation and it's wasn't by accident that he was up for the fair play award this year.

I thought the match was officiated quite well and the referee used great discretion throughout the match. Us fans, we have the benefit of slow motion replays and it's easy to point out errors and omissions.

Yeah you're right about the Mouthing off part. However you said the instigator is seldom flagged because he's not caught. Well what if he was caught? Salazar went to his assistant and asked him, maybe he saw something he didn't like Montero instigating.

You're right though I'd be lying is I said mouthing off to a player would be considered a foul, but it is noticed. Some people get very upset about that sort of thing.

This is laughable. Do you actually watch the sport? I do and I played in college. You're hard pressed to see this scenario actually play out where both the instigator and the retaliation are both flagged. Why? because very-very seldom does an official catch the originating foul. However, they almost always catch the retaliation.

Furthermore, unless you're reffing Pop Warner or perhaps High School ball, mouthing off to opposing players is not a penalty, it's an accepted part of the game. Not one its finer qualities, but still a part of the game.

Yes Hi I reffed Football for 5 years...was recruited to do Semi-Pro games, was on my way to NCAA Division 1. Yes you would have offsetting penalties because one player instigated and another retaliated. Otherwise what would you do with the instigator? He just gets to cause problems and doesn't get punished for it? That's not how you control the game.

Mouthing off and pushing in American football is seldom a penalty; however, knocking a guy down after a play is ALWAYS a personal foul. So, no, it would not be offsetting penalties. It'd be 15 yards from the spot of the foul.

Here's a question...if this happened to Christiano Ronaldo...would anyone care? Or would everyone be sending flowers to Onstad :D

If as is claimed I had been mouthing off and pushing his players before he did that. Than yes it would be offsetting penalties, I would be the instigator.

Tacoma, I have to disagree that Materazzi went down too easily. Taking a strong head butt to the middle of the chest will knock pretty much anyone down, especially if they're not expecting it. Did he sell it a little after he was on the ground? I don't think so, but it's irrelevant anyway because it's simply not okay to go around assaulting people during dead ball situations.

And Dustin, let me ask you this, if one of those 300 lb linemen deliberately knocked you over between plays, when absolutely nothing was going on, would you consider offsetting fouls to be the right call instead of unnecessary roughness? Would it be okay if the call was made because the ref didn't like you? Would the fact that you weren't really hurt make it okay? I'm just wanting to make sure I understand exactly what it is you're saying.

Steve, I get what you're saying but it's an admission that the refs and the league are unprofessional and allow a players' reputations to bias their calls instead of making calls on the basis of the actual incidents on the field. Not a ringing endorsement of the league. This paltry fine is even worse than the actual botched call because the league had time to think about it and consider exactly what they wanted to do.

It's obviously Grecian Formula. Because it's as easy as 1-2-3.

is it Rogaine or Just for Men? he has those sideburns/temples with tufts of white.

the most they have ever really fined anybody is 500, usually it is 250 or 500, it should have been 250, but I won't be crying. Just as long as somebody scores on his Rogaine sponsored ineptitude.

This discussion shouldn't be about Fredy. In fact it shouldn't even be about Onstad. It should be about MLS's lack of respect for the game.

If the fine was warranted, levy a real one. Have some respect for yourself and the game.

But to levy a fine when the amount is essentially meaningless is to kowtow to Seattle but in reality say that no fine was really warranted. It is the worst kind of divisive compromise and both sides end up hating the league.

Take a position MLS, or we'll all lose respect for you.

And while Fredy may flop like a dropped Pike Place Market Salmon - let's remember that this was violent contact after the ball was in touch. Freddy can flop all he wants and there's still only one bad guy here.

Steve/Prost, I don't think anybody will disagree that Fredy has himself to blame for a portion of this. (This would be why I gave him the "Boy Who Cried Wolf" award in my weekly awards.) His theatrics have always kind of make me want to smack him.

That doesn't make what Onstad did okay, particularly given that this was the second shove in two minutes. And it sure as hell doesn't make what he did five times less bad than what Leo did in Columbus.

i have often thought that montero makes the most... but is was VERY easy to see what onstad did, and regardless of if fredy made the most or not is 100% irrelevant to the lack of red card and this weak ass fine.

I'm sorry to be the one Sounders fan not joining in the chorus of victimisation, but Fredy has clearly made the most of incidents way too often this year.

His reputation for making the most of skirmishes and trying to get opponents cards, has now come back to haunt him. Not only is this kind of behaviour he has exhibited all year unsporting, it has now given opponents carte blanche to mess with him, because there is a reasonable assumption his reaction will be dismissed as over acting by officials.

Those who tried to justify his earlier theatrics and didn't see this as an inevitable outcome perhaps ought to revisit their well intentioned defence of him on every occasion.

The rest of the league has now marked him as a play actor and he will have to work hard, and take a few knocks now, to rid himself of that tag.

I'll be the first to admit that Fredy has made a seven course meal out of a lot of things this year. This was not one of them. Fredy did not take a dive or even go down too easily. He was knocked off of his feet as a result of violent conduct. Onstad is a lot bigger than Montero and I think the size and leverage played a fator here. I challenge anyone to try and recreate this scenario (I have) Even when the person in Onstad's position is the smaller position and a person in Montero's, it is quite easy to get knocked off balance when your feet are planted and someone comes up and bumps you like that, let alone someone of superior size and strength. Now, while he was on the ground and embellishing, that's a different story and not relevant to Onstad's actions.

In the last World Cup, Zidane got the red for hed butting a guy. In that case, the Italian probably went down too easily and then embellished.

Dustin--your remarks are irrelevant, this is not a throwball discussion. Congratulations on having to face 300 lb linemen, that has nothing to do with this situation now does it?

So you're saying as long as there was no pernament bodily injury, no punishment was warranted? I respectfully disagree.

I was about Fredy's size when I played football. I was up against 300 pounders as a D-Linemen. Is he injured? Dying? Post traumatic stress? He's fine, lets move it along, nothing to see here.

If Leo Gonzalez (Leo Gonzalez?! Not just Marshall, but Leo?) deserved a $500 fine for his "excavation" of the Columbus penalty spot, Onstad deserved that much for this incident. That combined with the yellow for Montero make this a joke. As I've said before, if Onstad got yellow, Fredy should have gotten nothing. If Fredy got yellow, Onstad should have gotten red. Fredy did nothing in this except get smacked.

(Yes, I'll be the first to admit that's not always the case. But it was the case here.)

And Fredy doesn't even speak English. I doubt he's mastered trash talk just yet. Maybe in a year or two, though. Can't wait to see what happens then. :-D

Fredy seems to have that effect on goalkeepers. Maybe he talks a lot of trash? He certainly made Josh Wicks lose his mind earlier this year and now this from Pat Onstad, who as far as I know does not have a discipline problem. But I am not sure what I saw really deserved a fine. It's been blown way out of proportion.

I think that for a lot of people, if Onstad had taken a gun and shot Fredy, then Fredy would still have gone down too easily. $100 is a joke and MLS knows it. Every time I think I can't respect MLS less, they go and prove me wrong.

He shouldn't have been fined at all.Can we move on now? Get over it.

Shoulder SLAM? Are you serious? If you take away Fredy's embellisment it's hardly an incident at all. I think he should pay half of that meager $100.