Sounders Poetry: Reflections on Referees and Freddie’s Red Card

"Dustin: check out the review of the Alonso handball."

Gotcha Carlos, lets looks at this rather than the thing we were arguing about.

Guys, be sure you buy the new book "Sound-ing Off: Carlos and Nathan discuss the state of the game in the States" out on Random House this August. Seriously, this type of thing happens week-in week-out in every league all over the world. I'm not saying it is right, it just is.

NathanHJ: Watching a game of soccer should be about more the play than the reffing, but unfortunately MLS refs don't generally allow that to be the case.

If you want to call my losing interest in the rest of MLS me punishing the rest of the teams, then so be it. In my opinion, "punishing" sounds a little too active, but the semantics don't matter too much to me. I have a connection with the Sounders, so I'll follow them wherever they go. I don't have any connection with the rest of MLS and therefore my interest was always provisional; until I have further reason to care they're just the scenery through which the Sounders move.

Just because I live here in the US doesn't mean MLS gets a free pass. The question is, are you serious? The reffing situation, with how bad it is, and the fact that USSF and MLS are apparently reasonably satisfied with the status quo tells me they're not.

As for "competing", Garber has spoken about how the challenge for MLS is capturing the attention of the soccer loving public in the US. There's a large group of fans that already love soccer and can't get enough of it, but won't watch MLS. These are fans who may or may not have an interest in the other sports, but who are already sold on soccer. It's a huge market that MLS would love to tap into, but can't. These aren't the baseball, basketball, or football fans who you have to convince to even give soccer a shot. These are guys who know the offside rule in and out, who know why a 3-5-2 is often a more defensive formation than a 4-4-2, who intuitively understand the away goals rule, and who can spit out all the scenarios for each team to advance to the next stage of the Champions' League when there are two matchdays left in the group stage. To these people, MLS is just another of the hundreds of leagues in the world and just like any of those, they'll need a compelling reason to care before they pay attention.

Have you considered that for fans in towns without a nearby MLS team, EPL is probably more accessible and more relevant to them than MLS? In the best case scenario, MLS is as accessible. So MLS is in competition with the EPL, whether it likes it or not. And it's losing out, most of the time. Therefore those fans probably wouldn't notice much if MLS went away. That's the harsh reality. Like I said before, MLS needs to come up with a compelling narrative to get those fans and incompetently reffing which ruins games is going to get in the way.

Dustin: check out the review of the Alonso handball. If that standard were applied universally, every single contact between an arm and a ball would be a deliberate handball. The way they get there is basically by claiming up is down and black is white. It pretty much destroys any credibility the the USSF reffing board could possibly have.

Why are we even talking about crappy refereeing here? The ref made the correct call, and Freddie then all but begged to be sent off. Hell, that may be what he was yelling at the ref: "SEND ME OFF! I'M PUTTING ON A SHOW SO YOU'LL SEND ME OFF!" We'll never know.

CarlosT: Okaaaayyyyy... I get it. Bad reffing = shite league and the rest of the teams should be punished. That's what I was unhappy about in the first place. But, look, I get your point that watching a badly reffed game makes it less enjoyable than watching a long-established Euro league that can draw upon national and regional futbol culture.

But my point is that watching a futbol game is more about the play than the reffing, even though, yes, they are linked on the field and that MLS is so young that it needs both support AND criticism to get better.

On your assertion that MLS is competing with Serie A, EPL, La Liga, etc, all I can say is that I don't think you can seriously expect a 14-year old league existing in a country with no national futbol culture, no real professional youth development leagues, only 15 first tier teams and about 18 or so second tier teams to have the ability to come close to a league like the EPL which exists in the country where the sport was invented and has 92 professional teams in 4 divisions to say nothing of the massive youth development infrastructure and national cultural presence of the sport.

At the risk of soundling like a guy criticizing the refs, it's not really fair. And if you want MLS to stick around for the long haul, all of the problems that make MLS a lesser league are going to be with us for a bit as well, chief among them salary cap and roster limitations. The reffing thing isn't going to get much better over the shortterm either because what's really going on here is that the refs don't read the game as well as the players and so their expectations are in a very different place than the players, especially as the play on the field improves.

Whatever... you have your view, I have mine. I just want this league to succeed over the long-term. That's a big deal since, yes, it is competing with the NBA, NFL, and MLB for American fans and, more importantly, for American athelets.

After all the brouhaha before, I'm quite certain Blanco was much more subtle about getting the jersey to him after the game. It will probably arrive gift-wrapped, via UPS.

Look, all I want is some consistency between and during matches. Also, I dont want to watch a guy trip over the ball then have it called as a foul. I dont think that is too much to ask. This particular game was not the most egregiously officiated game I have seen this season, but it was bad enough that it annoyed me.

An interesting quote from Sigi:

"Obviously they got the red card on the foul from behind and I just had the feeling, I told our coaches on the bench, that somewhere, somehow today we’re going to get a red card. It was going to happen...

I’m not going to go into it because I’m going to get into trouble if I go into it. It was a decision by the referee. I noticed he had a nice chat at halftime with Blanco. He was walking away and [Cuauhtemoc] Blanco called him back and he turned around. It was tough for me to get a word in but he found time for Blanco at halftime...

I think when you look at the NBA and some other sports that are around, there’s a certain respect factor that’s given to an established player. And when you look at the game internationally I think the same thing happens. Obviously there was respect given to some of the experienced players on the field, unfortunately they weren’t in a green uniform. I don’t know what he said. I asked the referee what he said and would not go into it. He just said it was too much, and I said well, what was it, and he said, it was too much.

http://www.examiner.com/x-413-...

Also, ESPN has highlights posted up on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

Usually it's what they say when walking away that gets the yellow.

Both red cards were examples of players making stupid mistakes not the referee.

An ejection for a second yellow may be harsh but those are the rules. If the referee hadn't made the second call on either one that would be a sign of poor officiating.

They were stupid moves on the players part.

Not really sure what the term "evenhandedness" means but I'll press on. What I'm doing is trying not to assume or guess what Freddie said. I'm merely pointing out that according to the rules and what standards referees judge these things by he might've said something to deserve the second yellow, of course he could've said something innocuous, we don't know.

Not surprising that I defend referees, when it's my chief concern that they get things right, I will point out when I don't think they do. In this situation, I don't know that he did or that he didn't get it right. I know that the dive call was correct, I don't know what Freddie said, and neither do you. I've come across some of these people who defend or ridicule referees. One thing I've noticed is they've never refereed, so I'm trying to bring a different perspective.

I like to think that my perspective is welcomed here instead of it just being a circle jerk of fanaticism. I'm a fan of a soccer team, that doesn't make them gods, they're people, just like referees.

Personally I don't like players of my team whining to the referee when they get something called against them. It's pathetic and it's why I watch Women's soccer, because they don't whine like the men.

"...and the fact that the ref review usually upholds those ludicrous calls just makes it worse." I'd really like to see you point out some evidence to this.

NathanHJ: To the league yes, to the rest of the fans, no. The Sounders may or may not be the best team in MLS, but they're certainly the only team I care about. I'm not a fan of anything but soccer, but that's the thing. MLS needs to realize that it's main competition isn't the NFL, NBA, NHL, or MLB. It's La Liga, Serie A, the Premiership, or pretty much any other league in the world. I don't have a problem with the level of play in MLS generally, but the reffing is so bad I can't take the league seriously. When I watch soccer from one of those other leagues, I usually only have one or two calls that I question per game and the replay usually shows that the call was correct or at least defensible. With MLS, I know now that I'm guaranteed to see ludicrously questionable calls, and the replay is usually going to confirm that the call was at least as crack-smoking as I first thought, if not more so. This is a huge credibility problem for the league and the fact that the ref review usually upholds those ludicrous calls just makes it worse.

Kurt L: From what I saw and from what I've heard from fans who where there (you may have been, I'm not saying you weren't) Freddie was walking away when the second yellow came out and then subsequently blew his top, quite reasonably in my opinion.

Dustin: Whatever. In these months of watching MLS, I've seen more ludicrously bad calls than I've seen previously in my entire life. Seriously, Co-Rec refs call the game better. This is not hyperbole. I see indefensible call after indefensible call, and then inevitably, on some message board or other, I see someone like you defending them on the basis of "evenhandedness" or whatever. Putting all the blame on the players. Do you seriously think that this is the very first time in Ljungberg's playing career that he's said something to a ref after a getting a yellow card he didn't think he deserved? Do you think he's the first player in history to do that? Seriously? Come on! I find it hard to believe that he somehow came up with something so amazingly, originally insulting this time. I find it much easier to believe that he said something routine and, in any other place than between Toledo's ears, completely innocuous.

Example of momentary emotional outburst. When Hartman in the Galaxy/Wizards game yelled "What is this shit?!" in reference of the streamers. An example of a momentary emotional outburst which is unacceptable would be Barrett telling a referee "Hey, F*ck You!" I'd like to point out Barrett wasn't penalized for that, so some refs either put up with it or are too scared to risk their careers to stop it. Baring in mind we don't know what Freddie said, Toledo has been around for awhile, and he's demonstrated he's not gonna put up with dissent from players.

CarlosT: While this is true for your emotional outbursts towards nobody it does not hold true when directed at someone...anyone. Least of all the official.

Carlos the overwhelming point is we don't know what Freddie said, or if it was directed at Toledo. You're assuming almost everything about what happened. What I'm saying is that we don't know, and we shouldn't judge what we don't know.

Johonna: "That said, poor officiating makes the league look rinky-dink to outsiders." That's true and it's horrible to all referees in the United States who watch this and know they can do this better. However if you're trying to cite this example, it's not fair. It's like looking at the result of a court case and berating the jury for it's decision, when you yourself haven't seen all of the evidence.

NathanHJ: I watch the sounders to support my home team and live football is fun. Also, there is no Italian football in the summer. Besides that, I am not particularly interested in the MLS... Or the EPL or La Liga. Dont take it personally, I am just really not all that sporty and the Serie A takes up a lot of time. I dont think one league is better than the other and therefor more worthy of my time, it is just that Serie A found me first. I am sorry you are offended by my lack of interest. Please dont take it personally, I just think passions differ. Plus, I can't practice my Italian at Qwest Field.

That said, poor officiating makes the league look rinky-dink to outsiders - even if the level of play is high (which it is). It is sort of like spelling errors in an article: they dont degrade the validity of an argument but they do make the author look stupid.

It wasn't a "momentary emotional outburst." He blew his top off.

If that wasn't dissent, what would be?

Freddie, you should not be having fits over correct calls.

Umm,

I appreciate the demands that MLS step up its referreeing and I understand that fans at least want consistency if they can't have fairness and justice, but, umm, I think a league should be dismissed for the quality of its futbol, not the quality of its refereeing. And the fact is that while the Sounders are clearly a top tier team in MLS, it isn't clear that they are the _best_ team in MLS. So if you are going to dis the rest of the league because there is consistently questionable referreeing in it, but still watch the Sounders... I don't know what to say.

It seems like a weird Pacific Northwest version of being a Eurosnob. I really think you are either helping to build a young league playing its 14th season or you are slumming until the NBA comes back or something. This Sounders and nothing else sentiment feels like a big ole "fuck you" to the rest of the fans of MLS.

Or at least to this fan of MLS and the Los Angeles Galaxy, who has been incredibly impressed and happy with what's going on in Seattle up to this point.

I'll comment here, since the Fire Offside hasn't been updated in ages. As a Fire fan, Blanco's antics suck and I personally can't wait for him to leave. As for Freddie, he dived and deserved a yellow. He also probably deserved the yellow for dissent, at least after the precedent set by the ref in sending Thorrington off after 1 yellow for the same offense. Personally, I wish neither would have received the dissent cards and we could have enjoyed the game more. That being said, I enjoyed the game quite a bit.

Word, Carlos!

Dustin, from the USSF's own guidelines for refs, on how to evaluate language: "In evaluating language as misconduct, the referee must take into account the particular circumstances in which the actions occurred and deal reasonably with language that was clearly the result of a momentary emotional outburst."

Now refs in MLS ignore the USSF guidelines routinely, so it's not surprising that they did here too. Anything Freddie would have said during the extremely short time between one yellow and the next would most certainly be "the result of a momentary emotional outburst."

Personally, I'm getting a little sick of all these calls to give the refs the benefit of the doubt and "reserve judgment". Why should we, when they're ignoring the Federation's own published guidelines? Why should we, when we can turn on FSC and watch how competent referees call games? Stop trying to defend the indefensible. MLS refs are horrible and yesterday's ref was yet another particularly horrible example. I don't think it's a conspiracy against the Sounders. Houston got screwed out of two points against us with the Montero "goal". I'm sure that fans from every team can come up with a long list of examples. That's the kind of thing that leads fans of soccer who aren't MLS fans to dismiss the league. I know I am. I'm there for every Sounders game, but the rest of the league is dead to me. If I want to see some soccer and the Sounders aren't playing then it's back to Serie A for me.

"Regardless of what he ended up saying, I think it’s a crap call on both!"

I'll disregard the obvious dive, but you think that players should be able to say whatever they want to referees? I got called a racist gringo once should I have just shrugged it off and not given any cards?

Freddie needs to start speaking Swedish when he's pissed! No one will know he's speaking poorly of their mother... and maybe he won't get sent off. Regardless of what he ended up saying, I think it's a crap call on both!

Yeah you definitely didn't get a good view. The defender step in to try and hit Freddie by all he got him with is an outstretched elbow, not in his back at all but in his front as he ran by. Freddie then tucked his feet and flopped to the ground, it was a classic dive. The 2nd Yellow, foul or abusive language? Who knows.

I dont know whether it was a dive or not, but thats because the replay isnt available on the Sounders site! Is this some sort of censorship or what? Whether it is or isnt let people watch it so they can get their own idea of what is going on. If he did indeed take a dive it'd be obvious from the replay. From where I was sitting it looked like the defender slammed his elbows into freddies back, but i didnt have a great angle. I'm so tired of him getting yellows for dissent though, so he needs to get control of that. I understand that MLS refs arent as high a level as Europe, but he should have had some idea of that before he came.

It was a total dive. He never got touched from below the arm. He picked up his feet and flopped badly. He deserved the card for that, if we had players trying to repeat those kind of flops on a regular basis the game would be like watching a circus clown act.
I think he protested so much from embarrassment more than anything else.
Abusive language is a straight red in itself, certainly a second yellow.
Harsh maybe but he could have acted like an adult and not flopped or had a fit.

love the poetry Laurie, you always have the right words and know how to give us a little laugh. :-)

According to a post at Next Season Sports, after the game Freddie was quoted as saying "I told him he's destroying a beautiful game." I'm guessing that wasn't ALL he said. He also said, "I just have to rise above it. I'm not going to go down to his level, screaming and complaining about things," so hopefully this means he learned his lesson and he won't go off on a ref again? Wow, I sometimes surprise myself with my optimism! ha ha. sniffle. I will miss him next game. :-(

As long as we're not debating the validity of the Ljungberg dive I'm fine. I understand completely, I got sick of Blanco awhile ago, I just haven't seen anything as blatant or as potentially costly as Freddie's dive at the top of the box.

"You can’t pick and choose based on which team you want to win or who gives you a jersey after the game."
Looks like you're taking a cue from Sigi, as in there's a conspiracy against us.

Sounders could've won this game, they got frustrated and angry and Ljungberg personified that. Should've finished several times over, but again all the talk turns to the officiating. I was disappointed we settles for a tie, Keller is always right about this sort of thing, we were better, but we didn't put the ball in the net.

Ah Lauri, great minds.

I guess my problem is if the ref is handing out cards for diving then why wasn't Chicago's #10 shown one?

Now, the only MLS games I watch are the sounders and then pretty much only the home games so my sample is skewed, but MLS officiating just seems so random and inconsistent. Oh well - there is nothing for it.

All I have to say is: Blanco????

If you're going to card for dives, you need to go after the worst offenders. You can't pick and choose based on which team you want to win or who gives you a jersey after the game.

Sorry correction, I see the yellow card in Toledo's hand after he already put it away for the original yellow. So yeah it must've been a Second Caution for dissent, I still don't know what he said though.

Ok so I saw it. Obvious dive, jerked and spasmed and hit the ground like he got shot, that's a card, especially considering where it happened. Top of the box in a zero zero game with the game getting really chippy (Fredy was lucky not to get a card for his earlier antics). I don't see anything wrong with that call, it's the right call.

Now from what I saw he didn't get a second yellow, but a straight red card. I can't read lips and I don't have a report on what was said, but for a ref to give a straight red especially Toledo it would have to be pretty friggin bad. I don't really know, all I know is what I can see, and that was Ljungberg yelling, what was said maybe we'll find out later.

I don't think you can criticize the call, everybody wants people to be called for diving and want it eliminated from the sport. However when their teams player is caught diving, it somehow shouldn't have been called...or it's too harsh to card it? Hypocrisy, anyone can see that. The first yellow in my opinion was fine, the straight red, we don't know and we should reserve judgment, please and thank you.

I will say, the diving card was a bit harsh, but Freddie should have known better than to go off on the ref like he did.

....I've become predictable....I'll go now

I am tired of complaining about the poor state of officiating in the MLS. I have come to expect it.
(cue Dustin)

Agreed. I needed something to make light of this... this at least helped a bit. But still... come on ref!

Thanks for that Laurie! I've been raging mad for three hours now and this gave me a little relief.